Tools of the trade

[mmrogers]

@Phoenix7. Traditionally, the stamps are usually ordered from custom stamp vendors through a supply house the silversmith regularly does business with like Thunderbird in Gallup, Albuquerque, Sant Fe Jewelers Supply, or Rio Grande (Albuquerque). Indian Jewelers supply in Gallup and Albuquerque used to be a major source as well. In some cases the silvermith provides artwork, and the company producing the custom stamp uses that artwork to create a truly custom stamp, or in other cases the silversmith simply provides the text they want and chooses from the available font styles.

Anymore, one can order just about any stamp they want through Amazon for less than $30, which makes all manner of stamps both more accessible and affordable to artists and forgers alike.

[Phoenix7]

Ok, good to know. The ones I’m referring to are pictured below circled in purple. Would this stamp be included in an Amazon scenario?

[mmrogers]

One can send any one of these patterns out to an Amazon stamp supplier, however the stamp isn’t made the same way as these hand made stamps, so they don’t create the same types of impressions and are usually easily identifiable as machine made stamps.

Traditionally, Native stampmakers either make their own stamps by hand from found objects like re-bar, automotive valve stems, files, and leaf springs, or inherit or or buy handmade stamps from other silversmiths, pawn shops, or supply houses.

[Ziacat]

I have a Charlie John cuff, so I was interested in learning more about his process. The Southwest Channel (sorry, can’t remember the exact name of the channel) interviewed and showed him as he worked in one of their videos. He said he hand makes all of his stamps, which was pretty cool. Not related to this, but Mr. John also said he spends a third of his time getting the exact polish he wants on his pieces. It increased my appreciation of the work that the great Native American artists put into their jewelry.

And this whole thread has been extremely informative.

[Ziacat]

Oh my gosh, that ring really reminds me of the Leon Martinez (who is his brother) ring that I just bought!

[Phoenix7]

Yeah, I thought they made their own stamps. It’s tough sluething out the artist of my cuff but, I believe that they should be recognized for their work, and me being the never ending curious cat, needs to know.

[Phoenix7]

I’m pretty sure one of the Martinez’s made this cuff. See, Even you see it! That stamp was the biggest clue. I figure they probably trade/share stamps.

[mmrogers]

One thing many people aren’t aware of is that every handmade stamp is nearly as unique as a fingerprint, so even when a hallmark isn’t present, it may be possible to identify a piece as being produced from a particular artist’s stamps from direct comparison with the stamps on an authenticated piece using the exact stamp or stamps.

For example, a close up detailed photo comparison of an authenticated Jennie Blackgoat signature piece to one overstamped with an A or H and attributed to another artist can pretty easily be identified as a deliberate forgery with a direct comparison overlay with the non-overstamped portions of the stamp. Most likely enough to overcome ‘reasonable doubt’ in a court of law.

[Ziacat]

I have my ring on my left finger while I was holding the phone and looked right down at it. This one that I posted after the Eiteljorg Market…

So that’s a cuff of yours? I was thinking it was a ring. It is gorgeous!

My ring does not have that particular stamp, and I know it’s a style that is used by other artists, but I did a double take when I saw your photo.

[Phoenix7]

That’s what I was both wondering and hoping for @mmrogers

@Ziacat yes, it’s massive 4", 116 grams. Very substantial so, someone wasn’t kidding when they made it.

[Phoenix7]

Those Martinez boys really make gorgeous stuff! I love to death the traditional revivalist jewelry.

Love that ring so much!

[Ziacat]

Your cuff is amazing! I was not very familiar with Leon’s work until he showed up at the Eiteljorg this summer. I talked to his wife for a while, but he wasn’t at the booth when I was there. Most of their stuff was waaaay out of my price range, but I completely understand the pricing considering the work he does.

Well, let me restate that. Since I was planning to go to AZ/NM in a month I needed to save some money, and the ring was the only thing that fit the budget for the moment

[Patina]

I appreciate the knowledge that you’ve shared about stamps used in Native American jewelry. It’s interesting, and I learned something new today. Thanks!

[Ravenscry]

@Phoenix7

How easy/difficult is it to track down an artist by their stamps?

I’m no expert, and certainly have nowhere near the knowledge or expertise that @mmrogers brings to the table, but I’d like to contribute some food for thought.

This example burns me to think about. Not too long ago, the bracelet in the top right of this photo was promoted by an ATADA accredited dealer as being historic and dating to 1890-1910. They provided the following, potentially misleading, evidence.

One of the things that I found out is in looking at the Larry Frank collection…there’s a photograph of this stamp that is a really unique design element (see photo above and example from Larry Frank’s Indian Silver Jewelry of the Southwest, 1868-1930 bottom left) and this uh stamp appears in a couple pieces that are in the Museum of Indian Art and Culture or MIAC here in Santa Fe. And so by identifying a stamp or particular design element, it helps us come up with attribution, and attribution is so important…

Photo below of same bracelet with an example from MIAC.

Personally, I don’t feel one should say, with such certainty at least, that all of these stamps are the same one. A more fitting and responsible statement would be “The resemblance of these stamps suggests these pieces could have been crafted by the same hand.” in my opinion.

While the intensity of the strike and perpendiculalarity of the stamp to the silver no doubt paly a role in any stamp’s impression, the MIAC example looks to be a completely different stamp, to me.

Contemporary master silversmith Jesse Robbins shared this photo of a cuff and stamps of his in the not too distant past…

As many here know, Jesse works in the traditional style and either makes many of his own stamps using steel blanks or old stamps purchased from antique dealers. (Toh-Atin Gallery)

While it’s obviously not the same stamp, it no doubt resembles it, and should serve as a cautionary tale.

I guess the dealer’s claim just rubs me wrong, and feels borderline illegal, if not immoral. All it takes is an enterprising silversmith driven by capitalism to duplicate; being a dedicated student of early silver and belt buckles has proven that to me.

[mmrogers]

This is really interesting and thought provoking @Ravenscry . Copying of another’s decorative stamp patterns is as old as the trade itself. One really needs a direct detailed photograhic transparency overlay analysis of the stamps laid one on top of the other to determine if it is the same stamp or a substantially similar stamp made in the same pattern. If one can get a high enough resolution shot of each stamp being compared (microscopic or photographed through a powerful macro lens), the similarities and differences become immediately apparent. We used such a transparency overlay comparison as evidence to demonstrate direct copying in the following link referenced case in the 1990s: https://www.ganoksin.com/ftp/rogers.pdf

[Phoenix7]

I’m sorry that I couldn’t reply to your message sooner but, I was on the road. I worried about your assessment in earlier thoughts. I wondered if it was a consideration that one could make/order a stamp similar to another masters stamp, and yes, I would imagine that it’s done to the detriment of the original artist. Thanks so much for your well thought out reply, Aaron! I appreciate you!

[Ravenscry]

@Phoenix7, I didn’t intend on throwing a wrench in the mix, nor did I desire to give you reason to be concerned. I just wanted to share the thought that the possibility certainly exists of stamps being copied, however unlikely it may seem.

As @mmrogers points out, the only way to definitively say that two different pieces were embellished with the same stamp would be to subject both examples to photographic transparency overlay. Tool marks are specific to the manufacturing process that made them, and every tool on the planet has it’s own unique characteristics. As many here well know, forensic scientists utilize a similar process when comparing tool marks left on evidence and rifling imparted onto bullets from the barrel of the firearm it was fired from; but that process utilizes a comparison microscope, more of a side-by-side visual, as compared to the overlay that Mike speaks of.

It just doesn’t sit well with me that someone who holds such a prominent position was pontificating something that had no supporting evidence other than a basic visual similarity and their opinion. It just felt suggestive, without a hint of uncertainty.

One’s choice of words, and how they are compiled, matters, especially in these kind of circumstances.

For anyone that is a fan of weavings…

In 1951, Katharine Drew Jenkins completed her MA Degree from the University of California, Berkeley with a thesis titled An Analysis of the Saltillo Style in Mexican Sarapes. She was really the first person to study Saltillos and take on a scientific view of them. In her analysis, she says “…every Saltillo that I’ve ever seen has white…” which is a very proper way of wording her thought, in other chapters, she says the words “always” and “never”, which, in my opinion, are two words that absolutely do not belong in such a study. She had looked at less than 100 Saltillos, and there are believed to be roughly 2500 in existence, so…

My point is that for someone of repute to suggest that a bracelet they have for sale bears the same stamps as an example from one of the most famous collections, as well as one that’s in a museum, is just wrong, and makes me question (even more), the validity of such spiels and the mouths they come from.

I’m done, I promise.

[Phoenix7]

Yes, I appreciate your analysis which is why I was looking forward to you chiming in. No wrench thrown at me will stop me from fixing an engine!

Obviously, the only way I’ll know who made my cuff is by checking in with all the usual suspects (which are many). You’re always so helpful! Thanks so much for your help, Aaron!

[StevesTrail]

We all make stamps and they are similar to others made yet are as different as fingerprints. As already stated, close forensic microscopy is needed to ascertain the differences. I’m curious as to the reliability due to factors of stamp wear, minor stamp damage or abrasions, silver compositions, and variations caused by the actual stamping of the metal.

If you really want to try some comparative verification, I have often seen vintage forensic comparison microscopes for sale at very reasonable cost. You would of course need to nearly identical pieces to do the comparison.

An interesting study would be to use a polarizing scope to analyze the metal stress left by a stamp used. Ive never used mine that way but it might have interesting results.

[Ravenscry]

@StevesTrail

I’m curious as to the reliability due to factors of stamp wear, minor stamp damage or abrasions, silver compositions, and variations caused by the actual stamping of the metal.

Very astute and valid point, Steve!