It was always my understanding that when the matrix is blue and the nodule color is a lighter blue (or a different shade of blue ) then that is called water web. The matrix must be blue.
If the matrix is brown, reddish or black, then it is spider web.
Of course some stones can be a variance of this, and deciding if they are true water web can be a matter of opinion. Some stones have both brown and blue matrix going on in them.
Then, as in the example posted by @Islandmomma, there frequently are both matrix and waterweb in the same pieces: the gold matrix, hosting the waterweb.
@chicfarmer put it perfectly, there’s a “softer,” more “bleeding” transition of the webbing, as opposed to the sharply delineated matrix.
So yes, things get a bit convoluted in a lot of these stones. I can see water in some as well as spider webbing all in the same stone at times. Here’s a couple more pieces. The 1st one is an old 1970s bolo with If I remember correctly is Turquoise Mountain mine, and the 2nd is an old 70s ring with Kingman. I can clearly see the water webbing in the Kingman, and both some spider and water webbing in the bolo.
I know some of you may have wondered about my water web Bisbee cab that I showed above in post #8 of this thread. I bought mine from a group of old stock Bisbee that included several water web pieces as well as smokey specimens.
Waterweb may not be common in Bisbee stones, but here I have some proof that Bisbee did indeed produce water web specimens.
I was at the annual gem and mineral show today, and I saw this collection of Bisbee stones in the booth of a well respected turquoise dealer, GL Miller. As you can see, there are a couple of very nice water web cabs in there.
Very nice! Also some green Bisbee in there (which i’ve been a bit fascinated by lately)
Thanks for posting the entire box. You have some beautiful pieces in there.
Oh @Islandmomma I did not buy them! Way out of my price range! I was able to buy my 2 pieces of Bisbee for about $2/carat. Which is of course dirt cheap for Bisbee.
Well, I’m still glad you posted them. It gave me something to drool over. I would love to have a box like that! And that green is absolutely amazing. You know I posted a necklace on here years ago and we never did decide what it was. Then about a year ago, I ran across a ring listed as Bisbee that looked like it. I bought the ring and it was very, very similar to the pendant on the necklace so I started doing research again. I finally messaged John Hartman at Durango. It took a day or so, but he messaged me back and told me that it was actually stabilized Bisbee. It’s polychrome. Let me see if I can find the old (New Turquoise and Coral Necklace- Royston?)
Hi @Islandmomma. This sure is beautiful turquoise. Your post has me thinking about identification of turquoise. I know that you know we can’t identify turquoise, with any certainty, by comparison to simular cab listed as from a particular mine. Also, can we expect an expert (John Hartman or ?) to identify turquoise from a picture. I think we all tend to identify turquoise from our experience, and yours certainly may be Bisbee, but can we really call it Bisbee at this point?
Sorry, I don’t mean to be Debbie Downer, but I always question identification of turquoise
Very good point and I agree to a degree. If this was an important piece that was to be auctioned or sold, then provenance would be of paramount importance. However, this is a piece in my collection that I wear and enjoy. I don’t expect to sell it so I am ok with John Hartman’s opinion. I specifically asked him because I saw some very similar material on his website and he tends to specialize in Bisbee. In this case, I’m ok with a knowledgeable opinion.
Totally fine @Islandmomma, and I know you understand what I’m saying. For your collection it’s absolutely up to you to accept the opinion from a knowledgable individual. Certainly his opinion is important information, but I get frustrated with individuals (not you 
) stating a piece “is” a specific collectible turquoise without specific knowledge from the miner or the jeweler.
So how can any of us really know what kind of turquoise we have? None of us are digging up turquoise and cabbing those pieces ourselves.
We are trusting the jeweler and the lapidary to tell us the truth, and also our observation skills to make a judgement.
If we say “this looks like #8, and the cutter says it’s #8, so it must be #8.”……is that wrong?
So here I am, the jeweler. I bought some Tyrone from a guy at the mineral show in Oct. He had a whole big tray of Tyrone, and he says he cut and cabbed it all himself.
So I bought some pieces. When I make them into jewelry, I’m gonna tell people that it’s Tyrone, because I bought it from the guy who acquired the rough and cut it. Does that make me the jeweler who has specific knowledge?
I am not expert of course, so this is just my opinion. If I have bought it from the artist or a reputable store, I generally trust them (especially if they bothered to put it in writing). If someone, even someone highly knowledgeable like Jason, gives me their thought about what it is, then I say that the stone is possibly or likely from that mine. I’m glad for my personal enjoyment to hear what turquoise experts think, but I understand that they may be incorrect. And I think in many cases, we will never know 100%. That doesn’t bother me.
Unless we have verifiable information, we can only make an educated guess.
Absolutely @Stracci! If turquoise is identified by the miner, the artist (jewelry or cutter), and you trust them, then certainly we have no option but to believe them. And if you make a piece of jewelry with a cab identified the cutter, there is nothing wrong with identifying it as such. Maybe I’m being overly critical, but I’m frustrated with pieces that are stated to be a specific type of turquoise without such verifification.
Exactly, Zia! It’s best to use “possibly”, or “likely,” since in some cases the knowledgable individual may be contradict the thoughts another knowledgable individual.
It’s not black and white
. And who is knowledgable depends, for the most part, on the each of our opinion and experience.
Most of the turquoise that I buy and use in my jewelry comes from the Albuquerque Gem and Mineral Club’s Annual show.
The turquoise vendors and cabbers that attend are mostly local to the Southwest. They are a close knit group, and they can get their hands on rough from NV, AZ, NM, CO and northern Mexico. I have no reason to doubt any of them on the origin of their stones.
I like to buy from these guys because I feel they are honest about what they are selling and close to the source.
My possibly (in the spirit of this thread!) Bisbee waterweb came from the Antique mall. There was a box of stones, all labeled as Bisbee. Most of them exhibited the distinct smokey look, and about 6 of them had the waterweb look, which all appeared to be cut from the same rough. The lady who runs the booth was selling some of her husband’s old stock, that he was a cabber at one time. I had no reason to doubt this, based on their distinct appearance.. They were priced low, and I jumped at them.
So well said. Certain items of value exist with oral history provenance, and that’s long been true. I mean that someone knows the origin and remembers it and passes along the knowledge. I think this is particularly true in the turquoise community, which is small and people know each other over generations in some cases. It’s only in fairly recent times that people didn’t feel quite comfortable with this nontechnical, nonrecorded lineage of what came from where and from who. For various reasons, we have a lot of broken trust in the marketplace.
The more one knows who you’re dealing with, the more one self-educates, the more guardrails you have against being deceived.
I was only speaking for myself. I don’t buy stones from cabbers, so I understand why you are confident in your purchases. I am referring to things I’ve already purchased that I ask questions about.
@Ziacat Of course! If the tag in the shop says #8, then you figure the reputable shop got this info from the jeweler who verbally told them it was #8. If the tag doesn’t state anything, then you have to use your knowledge to make a judgement about the stones possible origin.
I was once in Palms Trading when the notable Leslie Nez came in to sell to them. He had his hands full of necklaces, but no paperwork. I’m sure he told them verbally what the stones were that he used in his work. That’s where the information about the stone comes from, and they then mark the tag as such.
When I bought a cuff from Sunshine Reeves at Indian Market, he told me that the stone in it was Kingman. So I believe him, he’s a well respected artist.
This just popped into my Instagram feed.
I’m adding this for our discussion of authenticity on turquoise.
Great example of webbed Bisbee! And certificate on the Godber!
I saw this vendor at the Albuquerque Gem show yesterday, but his prices were out of my league. But Darryl D. Begay scooped them up! I’m sure he’ll make something amazing with them.
__________________________________________
All I know is I’m never guessing on turquoise origin again.
